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Tasers Kill People - WA next?
by FaTP_C	2005-02-24 1:08 AM +0800
Tasers are bad okay. Why the fuck are we using them here in WA? Story below from Houston Indymedia and various sources.
Taser Concerns Grow As Death, Injuries Mount: http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/1486 - As police use of stun devices sparks controversy and investigation, some departments are slowing their Taser orders while still others add the shock weapon to their arsenal. Amnesty International Calls on Police to Stop Using TASERs on Children, the Elderly, and Persons With Disabilities: http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/02/1720528.php Last Friday, two constables from Harris County Precinct 1 killed a 52-year-old man by shocking him with a Taser. As the Houston Chronicle reported, the constables had been dispatched to serve a "mental health commitment" warrant on the man. When he resisted, the officers delivered the Taser shocks several times. The man died later in a nearby hospital. This is the fourth death of an unarmed individual at the hands of local law enforcement officials so far this year. How many more people have to die before we hold police, deputies, and constables accountable for their actions? The use of Tasers by law enforcement has come under scrutiny recently across the United States. According to the manufacturer Taser International: "TASER devices utilize compressed nitrogen to project two small probes up to 25 feet at a speed of over 160 feet per second. These probes are connected to the TASER device by insulated wire. An electrical signal is transmitted through the wires to where the probes make contact with the body or clothing, resulting in an immediate loss of the person’s neuromuscular control and the ability to perform coordinated action for the duration of the impulse." http://www.taser.com/index.htm - (a 50,000 volt shock). Taser International also points out that: "TASER devices are currently in testing or use at over 6,000 law enforcement, military and correctional agencies in the United States and abroad." Taser International claims these devices are completly safe, and many have grouped Tasers with a host of new weapons described as "Less that Lethal". This classification is obviously untrue; this past Friday, HPD tazered a 52 year old man multiple times, which resulted in his death soon after in a local hospital... Houston action: http://houston.indymedia.org/news/2005/02/37654.php - a call for an emergency protest called. Excessive and lethal force? Amnesty International’s concerns about deaths and ill-treatment involving police use of tasers - from 30 November 2004: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr511392004 - Over 70 people have died in police custody in the United States and Canada, since June 2001, after being struck with Tasers in police custody... January 20th anti-inaguration protests: http://austin.indymedia.org/feature/display/18818/index.php - Police used a Taser on one protester as they violently arrested 3 people. This police brutality has resulted in a campaign against the police use of Tasers in Austin and a protest at APD headquarters earlier this month: http://austin.indymedia.org/feature/display/19201/index.php Chicago cops delay adding more Tasers as incidents probed: http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/index.php?page=business&story_id=021205b5_taser The pics below of Taser Brand TASERS are from the Taser website.

TAZERS scale pictures
Link here Add multimedia to story Add links to story

untitled
by anonymous	2005-03-07 1:33 PM +0800
unarmed people? are you a Police Officer? Do you have to try to physically control someone who is mental? Drunk? on drugs? who has no intention of doing what you say because they dont want to go back to jail. were you present at any of the situations where a taser was used? I doubt it. Elderly people can kill you. Children can kill you. Anyone can kill you. Just because they were supposedly unarmed doesnt mean that they are not dangerous to themselves or others. The Police are there to protect your ass. Not kiss it. Every day dangerous people go to jail or back to jail. You sound you dont want there to be police. They are screwed if they do and screwed if they dont. Its easy for you to sit at home and criticise them for their job. Hmmm, what will happen if we let everyone out of jail and stopped enforcing laws? who will you call when someone is breaking into your house while you sleep? while someone you love is getting hurt? The taser is another tool to keep the Officers safe. To you and all the other treehuggers at Amnesty International: You just stopped a car for whatever reason, you are alone, on a rural highway. you have pepper spray, taser, baton and a gun. An angry man comes at you from the car, screaming with his fists clenched and raised like he is ready to fight. He is unarmed as far as you know. He may have a gun, he may not. He may want to kill you, he may not. For all you know he may have just killed you whole family. He may be the pastor at the church. The problem is, you dont know that. You tell him to stop he doesnt he is now only a few feet from you. What do you do? A. Pepper spray him which doesnt work on some people and usually just pisses them off. B. Taser him, which gives you no muscle control. Nobody can hide from that. C. use baton, in which case you will be seen as "beating the man and then have the touchy feely activists accusing you of beating the poor unarmed man who was simply just wanting to say hi to you. D. Shoot him, this one is obvious as to the consequences. E. Do nothing and die. So, choice is yours. think about it from the cops perspective. Link here
hmmm
by FaTP_C	2005-03-07 2:07 PM +0800
I'm inclined to say "Fuck the Police", but i guess thats what you'd be expecting. I'm not a police officer, are you? But I'd expect the police to act in a manner fitting of the arbitrary power they wield on a daily basis. I suppose the most abhorrent thing is the overt authoritarian approach to handling situations such as the one you describe above. I'd hope that police training is adequate enough for officers of the law to be able to deal with such an incident without even raising a baton. All police officers should be able to handle a situation such as: "angry man comes at you from the car, screaming with his fists clenched and raised like he is ready to fight", with defensive training, and without resorting to weapons. Why does the officer HAVE to use a tool other than his/her own body? I'd suggest a trip manouvre, followed by rolling the "angry man" onto his front and cuffing behind his back. ie: No Taser, No Baton, No Pepper Spray, No Gun. Just brains and intuition and good training. Whilst "tasers" are less destructive on the human body than bullets they are certainly KILLING people across the States, as more Police services take up the Taser Corporations offers. "Over 70 people have died in police custody in the United States and Canada, since June 2001, after being struck with Tasers in police custody..." http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr511392004 Even some US Police Services have delayed adding more Tasers as these incidents are being probed: "The Chicago Police Department will not distribute more Taser guns to officers while it investigates the device's use on a man who died and a teen who was injured this week... deaths have been blamed, at least partially, on the devices... Chicago police said they used a Taser on a 54-year-old man after officers were unable to restrain him. The man went into cardiac arrest and later died... A 14-year-old boy remained in a hospital after going into cardiac arrest after the device was used on him Monday..." We need to take this information on board as WA introduces these oppressive weapons onto the public. At the very least, extensive training in how to use these fucked-up little guns is necessary. And some research into the overall effect these things can have. It seems in the US situations, the victims have been "over-tasered". This is one area of concern - that police are applying the tasers too far without considering the consequences. I'm just waiting for the first Aussie "death by Taser". You have to remember, "anonymous", that these things have unecessarily KILLED 78 people in 3 years and sent many more into Cardiac arrest. We need to be aware of these things. And that is the concern of the story above... Furthermore, you say "to all the other treehuggers at Amnesty International". Obviously you have much disrespect for ecological and human rights defenders. Some questions for you, my good friend: What do you mean by "treehugger"? Do you think Amnesty is a worthy group? Don't you think people should stand up for human rights? Why do you think groups such as Amnesty exist? Link here
untitled
by anonymous	2005-03-08 7:21 AM +0800
I am a Police officer. You can say fuck the Police I don’t care. It just shows your ignorance. Just remember I am entitled to my opinion just as you are. And I respect that. I work out and stay healthy but, I am not a large Arnold Schwarzenegger cop. I have been in situations when I had to try and physically control someone much larger than me. What if this angry man is trained in martial arts? What if the officer is a female? I am not trying to put down female officers, but they are not as strong as males. I wrestled in high school. Do you know how difficult it can be to physically control someone and get them into the position that you want? And why would you want to get that close to a person and give them easy access to your gun? It’s very easy for you to sit there and say what the officer should have done. Especially since you are not the one in his or her shoes. "Why does the officer HAVE to use a tool other than his/her own body? I'd suggest a trip manouvre, followed by rolling the "angry man" onto his front and cuffing behind his back. ie: No Taser, No Baton, No Pepper Spray, No Gun. Just brains and intuition and good training." Wow! That’s easy to say, but easy to do? Yes, in your head. You make it sound like a movie. This is real life; you are not the one in that situation are you? How would your actions change if I told you this man was also trained in knife fighting? You may not know he has a knife. Do you want to get that close to him that while you are doing you little trip maneuver he decides to stab you a couple of times? Do you want to go home at night? You are not the one who is getting attacked. I am. I am not some super human who can grab someone and physically overpower them every time. I don’t get out of my car angry with a metal state that I want to hurt someone. Therefore I have a slight disadvantage of not having the adrenaline and pre mental planning that this angry man has. I had the luxury of having this situation two days ago. As I sit here with a broken finger, tell me why you are not here at the local jail, doing an story on how my human rights were violated by this criminal? Had I broken his finger or tasered him you would be all over me like stink on shit. Explain this to me. It happens…..all the time. So tell me, you seem to be the expert here in Police training and know what the Police should do in these situations. Maybe you should research all 78 supposed killings from tasers and hold a training conference with Amnesty and ACLU as to what the officers should have done. And I want to see proof that the Tasers were the cause of death. This is a nice quote from another website that fits the answer to your above quote perfectly. "I agree with the American Civil Liberties Union that Houston should abandon the use of Tasers and guns, and, instead, use an ACLU legal emergency security squad made up of attorneys and ACLU members. Whenever police encounter a drug-crazed criminal, they can simply call upon a "ACLULESS" member to handcuff the person. The ACLULESS members will need no training since they already know the actions police should take to control any situation with split-second wisdom and without jeopardizing the safety of the criminal, the bystanders or themselves." I don’t preach that the Police are perfect, but everything you see is negative. Like said above, all the groups like Amnesty and ACLU seem to have all the answers. So why don’t they apply as Police officers and go get shot at and stabbed and show us how it is done? They seem to know all the answers don’t they? Why aren’t groups like Amnesty and ACLU upset because all of the Police officers getting killed? What about the soldiers in Iraq? What about their human rights that were violated? I don’t see Amnesty picketing and rallying against the Iraqis because someone I knew was killed in Iraq? They are more worried about what human rights were possibly violated. They weren’t bitching when saddam was killing people left and right before. Why now? I don’t see them pissed of about that? It’s the poor criminals who were doing absolutely nothing wrong. Who do you call when someone steals something from you? Who do you call when someone has a gun to your back wanting your money? Or do you just trip them, flip them over, take the gun, and hand deliver them to the police? Some answers for you, What do you mean by "treehugger"? Amnesty, ACLU, environmentalists, liberals. All of those who have nothing better to do than bitch about everything the government and its agents are doing wrong. Do you think Amnesty is a worthy group? Yes, when it goes for everyone. When I see Amnesty mad about the numbers of police officers killed and soldiers, etc. then I will reconsider. I don’t see them rallying around a criminals house because he killed a cop. Why? Human rights isn’t it? Don't you think people should stand up for human rights? Yes when they do it fairly and not one sided. Why do you think groups such as Amnesty exist? Because, they love the world and want everyone to just get along. Link here Add multimedia to story Add links to story
Ello Ello Ello Whats Goin On Ere Then... Move Along
by FaTP_C	2005-03-08 9:44 AM +0800
So, by your logic, the police need to have free reign then? With no scrutiny whatsoever? No checks and balances? Shoot anything that looks dodgey? Keeping us safe from the bad guys. You called Amnesty a "treehugger"! You're a funny guy, anonymous. Do you even understand what Human Rights are? You say you are a Police Officer. When you trained did you study the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in any way? I'm interested to know a Policeman's view on Human Rights. Youre scaring me at this point. Re Amnesty: You say: "They weren’t bitching when saddam was killing people left and right before". Yes they were: Amnesty International DID indeed jump up and down about Saddam. A lot. A fucking lot! Here is a veritable litany of documents going back to 1993: http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-irq/reports You ask, "tell me why you are not here at the local jail, doing an story on how my human rights were violated by this criminal?" Well, "anonymous", firstly because I didnt know about it! Secondly because I now very much doubt the validity of your claim to be a policeman. Sitting in a jail posting to an Indymedia site! Hmmm. Lets just issue the police with bazookas and m16s... Tanks would be cool too, and maybe a rocket launcher mounted to your police tank! Respect to the real police. Link here
untitled
by anonymous	2005-03-08 11:20 AM +0800
“Lets just issue the police with bazookas and m16s... Tanks would be cool too, and maybe a rocket launcher mounted to your police tank!” Now you are just being stupid. I don’t care if you believe I am a Police officer or not. I am not trying to convince you. I fully believe in Human rights, as long as the person who preaches them does so in an equal manner. A criminal violated my human rights and you didn’t hear about it. That’s ok Im not asking you to care, but had I shot that person, Im sure you have found away to hear about it. I never said Police need full reign. Did I? checks and balances are fine, but they get old when you look at someone wrong and somehow you have just violated their civil rights. I am fully aware that there are valid human rights violation claims. I don’t agree with anyone getting their human rights violated, but why is it that the only people who are looked at are those in the government? Me sitting in a jail? No, but if you feel the need to disagree that is your choice. If I was a criminal in jail wouldn’t you think I would be complaining about my civil rights? I only have one question that I want answered. I asked it above and it was not answered. If Amnesty Intl. and ACLU and all the other organizations have all the answers as to what the Police are supposed to do in these human rights violations, then why aren’t they working as Police Officers and at the academy teaching all of the classes? Telling us what they want us to do? Why do they sit back and criticize and say what should have been done? After any thing happens all I hear about is that the cop should have done this, should have done that. Link here Add multimedia to story Add links to story
You had heaps of questions - but I thought they were mostly rhetorical!
by FaTP_C	2005-03-08 11:46 AM +0800
I can only speculate, but the purpose of Amnesty International at least is to: "...addresses governments, intergovernmental organisations, armed political groups, companies, and other non-state actors. "Amnesty International seeks to disclose human rights abuses accurately, quickly and persistently. It systematically and impartially researches the facts of individual cases and patterns of human rights abuses. These findings are publicised, and members, supporters and staff mobilise public pressure on governments and others to stop the abuses. "In addition to its work on specific abuses of human rights, Amnesty International urges all governments to observe the rule of law, and to ratify and implement human rights standards; it carries out a wide range of human rights educational activities; and it encourages intergovernmental organisations, individuals, and all organs of society to support and respect human rights..." http://www.amnesty.org.au/about_us/about_us So they're not about to don Police uniforms and firearms. Their purpose is to report on Human Rights abuses. They do not want to BE cops! Bodies like AI and Human Rights Watch seek to address the imbalances - to outline the problematics of law enforcement etc. Their job is not to "sit back and criticize" - it is to actively alert the world to potential human rights injustices. They do this by putting pressure on Governments etc - as mentioned above. In relation to "TAZER" reports. Have a look - "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Excessive and lethal force? Amnesty International’s concerns about deaths and ill-treatment involving police use of tasers" SEE: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr511392004 Its an interesting read. And something the Police Minister should certainly have a gander at! I know very little about ACLU (or "all the other organisations" as you put it) but these orgs are set up to monitor our rights and to keep an eye on the abuse/misuse of power. It is a very good question to ask why mobs like Amnesty are NOT teaching in the academy. Maybe you can ask your superiors! Great Idea! I care little if you are a cop/criminal or assasin. We only have your claim on that one, but you said above that you were at the local jail! Which is why I said that above. If you're a cop - I'd hope you were putting your time to better use than complaining on an Indymedia site! Link here
untitled
by anonymous	2005-03-08 12:01 PM +0800
Yeah ok you can copy and paste from the website that’s good. I didn’t mean I was in the jail, I meant here “in this city” at the local jail. Sorry if the details were foggy to you. As you said before, "All police officers should be able to handle a situation such as: "angry man comes at you from the car, screaming with his fists clenched and raised like he is ready to fight", with defensive training, and without resorting to weapons. Why does the officer HAVE to use a tool other than his/her own body? I'd suggest a trip manouvre, followed by rolling the "angry man" onto his front and cuffing behind his back. ie: No Taser, No Baton, No Pepper Spray, No Gun. Just brains and intuition and good training." Well, you seem to know what to do. Amnesty sounds the same way sometimes. If they don’t want to be cops, and they have never been cops, and they don’t know how to be cops, how would they be able to say what the cops should do? Once again its very easy to sit back and say what should have been done. What personal experience do you have in these situations that gives you the knowledge to know what the Officer should have done? What training and experience does Amnesty have to give them the knowledge to know what to do? Link here
untitled
by anonymous	2005-03-08 12:12 PM +0800
Im sure you have read this already, just curious to see what your plan of action would have been? This man is offering to kill you. Should they have just offered the man a hug? maybe get close enough to him so he can bite you and infect you? CHICAGO — A man died after Chicago police used a Taser (search) stun gun to subdue him Thursday, just days after a teenager was critically injured in a similar incident that prompted a lawsuit against the city. Police said they used the stun gun when they were unable to restrain an unruly 54-year-old man who was fighting with officers at a high-rise building on the city's North Side Thursday afternoon. The man went into cardiac arrest and later died, according to Chicago Fire Department spokesman Larry Langford. Authorities did not identify the man Thursday evening. Police Cmdr. Michael Chasen said the man was trying to kick and bite officers and threatening to infect them with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. "'I'm going to kill you with my blood,'" Chasen quoted the man as saying. Link here
ho hum
by FaTP_C	2005-03-08 12:49 PM +0800
Look mate. I'm not a Police Officer. I don't have police or law enforcement training. I'm sure I wouldn't know what to do in such a situation... But obviously you have all the answers. But, if I WERE a coppper, I would hope I'd been trained well enough to sort the situation out without killing or unecessarily hurt too many people in my day to day activities. I am competent enough in my own job and can assess and act on situations related to my employment. But I aint no Cop! Leave that to the people that take roles like that on. Thats their job. And it makes sense to scrutinise Police. They get to carry guns and drive really fast cars! Someones got to make sure they do the job without killing too many people! My concern, and others is that Taser's need to be evaluated and stucied a shitload more before being the used by WA Police "weapon of choice". Seems that Stun guns are LESS LETHAL and never NON-LEHTAL. And this is the crux. That care needs to be used. As we've established, around 80 people in the United States and Canada have died over the past five years after being shocked by a Taser. So, despite being widely deployed by some 5000 agencies, there's been no independent study into the use and effects of tasers. Doctors continue their concerns about potential health risks from tasers, "particularly in the case of people suffering from heart disease, or under the influence of certain drugs"... I'd urge ALL WA Police and Citizens to Read the Report: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr511392004 You asked a question bfore about Amnesty. I answered it using information from their website. The point about Amnesty etc is that they highlight stuff that is contrary to human rights. Thats simple enough. They report on stuff whats bad. They tell us whats wrong - and recommend stuff. They, nor I, have ANY intention of BEING cops! Lets start Hugging the world to death! Link here
untitled
by anonymous	2005-03-08 2:15 PM +0800
I don’t believe tasers were ever called non-lethal, if so then that is completely wrong. Nothing is non-lethal in this field. I understand the points you make and I am not trying to make you think differently by any means. Without the checks and balances people would run rampant. “As we've established, around 80 people in the United States and Canada have died over the past five years after being shocked by a Taser. So, despite being widely deployed by some 5000 agencies, there's been no independent study into the use and effects of tasers. Doctors continue their concerns about potential health risks from tasers, "particularly in the case of people suffering from heart disease, or under the influence of certain drugs"... How are the police supposed to know if a person is high or has a medical condition? Tell the man with the knife to stop running at you so you can ask him a few questions? I read a story about a young girl (13 or so) who was tazed while running into traffic? Taze her and “violate her human rights” or let her run into traffic and get hit and killed and be sued for not stopping her. Seems fair, screwed if you do and screwed if you don’t. 78 people died in the last 5 years after being hit with a taser (which is subject to more debate), when thousands more people die from smoking, drugs, car accidents every day? Why doesn’t amnesty go after all of the car manufacturers for making cars that could hurt you? Or pollute the air? Do all of the people who work for amnesty drive electric cars? If not then they are subjecting everyone to poisonous exhaust. Which can kill you, which means they are also violating human rights. Sounds ridiculous huh? They need to be fair, if you go after one go after them all. What if an HIV infected person had bitten an officer and that officer was infected. You can’t tell me that Amnesty would come raining down on that man for infecting that officer with HIV. Where would amnesty be in that case? That is where I see the problem. Amnesty picks and chooses where it wants to act. Where the money is…in the government’s pockets. Link here
Accountability Brother!
by FaTP_C	2005-03-08 3:17 PM +0800
WOW! You have a lot of hostility towards Human Rights orgs for an officer of the state. Perhaps you should complain to Amnesty International that they target Governments for money. But I can't figure out your logic on that one! :) You do seem to have a fair deal of antagonism to groups which uphold human rights. Thats what worries me. Amnesty acts where it sees a problem. AI has long been campaigning about HIV. There are many reports related to AIDS etc. Amnesty exists to analyse and report on potential human rights abuses. Deaths attributible to Tasers are growing, and some US and Canadian agencies have even stopped using them in general use until more information becomes available. Currently there are no measures in place to curb their misusage. The only information about Tasers comes from the Taser Corporation itself! To reiterate: "there's been NO independent study into the use and effects of tasers". And this is the basis of my concern, and is the essence of Amnesty's November 2004 Report. Seriously man, as someone who claims to be a WA cop you may want to read the Report: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr511392004 At the very least Police should be aware of the DANGERS of these potentially lethal guns... WA already uses Tasers within the TRG but not in general usage yet. The Government have just secured a $20,000 contract to purchase more. I belive 40 was the number of units... Link here
untitled
by anonymous	2005-03-08 3:21 PM +0800
I would gain much respect for Amnesty if: They went through some of the situations that Police Officers go through. Why not set up a re enactment scenario of some of the situations where tasers were used? I want to see one of them handle it better. There are simulators that they can go through, and all kinds of training aids. I don’t see any of their research showing that they did this. Why? Why don’t they go through a training simulator or a police academy, and report back how easy it was to control a person? And that Cops across the nation are doing everything wrong? Why don’t they go work with law enforcement for a while? I want to see someone from Amnesty go out on the street and get in a confrontational situation and deal with it any way they want. A real life situation where your or someone elses life is on the line. I don’t care if they want to be cops or not, weather or not they want to put on a uniform and carry a gun, that’s not the point. I want to see them prove to me what they preach. I want to see them go out and do it better than it is being done now. This is a simple request, if a representative from Amnesty cannot and does not, then they have absolutely no right to scrutinize the officer’s actions if they cannot go out and do it better themselves. Just like one of your earlier responses was to do “a trip manouvre, followed by rolling the "angry man" onto his front and cuffing behind his back.” When you get into that situation and show me that it can be done then you will have the right to scrutinize what the officers are doing. Prove to me that any person from Amnesty can go out on the street and handle a similar situation to those in which tasers have supposedly killed people, and do it without getting themselves killed, violating any human rights, or running away. If this were something I would ever see, then I would sign up to be the chairman of Amnesty Intl. Link here
untitled
by WA Police Watch	2005-03-08 3:32 PM +0800
FOR FUCKS SAKE - READ THE REPORT: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr511392004 Amnesty are simply a NGO body set up to report on violations of the 1951 UN Declaration of Human Rights. They just report and recommend stuff. Link here
untitled
by anonymous	2005-03-08 3:33 PM +0800
I did, thanks Link here
Are you for real?
by FaTP_C	2005-03-08 3:37 PM +0800
Look - you asked me what I'd do in your "angry man" scenario. I suggested an idea. I am not a Cop. I do not want to be one. Whilst I have a massive distrust and disdain for ALL authority, I do respect the work of Police. It is a tough and sometimes dangerous occupation. The people I know who work in the WA Police Service are pretty good folks. But people, especially those that will use them, need to be made aware of the potential dangers behind these new toys... Link here
untitled
by anonymous	2005-03-08 3:58 PM +0800
I dont argue the fact that there are potential dangers, that is one of the risks of breaking the law and fighting the Police. I dont wish anyone to die, or get seriously hurt, but if they pose a threat to myself, another person, or themselves then the taser is an option to consider rather that a bullet. I havent seen any reports of a cop just zapping some innocent person walking down the street and killing them Link here
untitled
by different anon	2005-04-12 1:43 PM +0800
I too am a Police officer, but not in W.A. I will agree with the other anonymous in just about everything he has said. There are a few things i would like to clarify with everyone. 1. When I work - I look after me, my partner then everyone else. I want to go home to my family and friends because our shitty compensation program doesn't look after them. If a taser or similar weapon is going to help ensure that - bring it on. As with ANY use of force there is always a reason it happens. The initial situation that "Anonymous" used as a scenario probably wouldn't allow Police to use a taser, however, in NSW recently a police dog (Titan) was killed in the line of duty by a person Police were trying to apprehend following a siege. This guy stabbed Titan 2 times which killed him. OC spray probably would not have worked as the dog handler was too far away (as with everyone) shooting the person would have probably been a manouvre, use of the baton would be ridiculous as you would have to be too close to the guy. Now think about this. If anyone at that scene had a taser gun and thought to use it, would that police dog be alive? Nobody deserves to be killed unnessarily, but if a person lunged at you or your family with a knife in their hands - do you want to use your baton? your oc spray? probably not. You wont want to go near him. perhaps your gun or your taser would suffice. It is not about training in combat manouvres. I did my fair share of that and it is not always the case that i can use it. A taser gun wont be the end of it all - it will help some situations, it may not help some. but for it to work - we need it. Police are trained in the area of ethics, we are also trained in law, traffic, communications, weapons, safety, safe driving and many other things. We have so much legislation which prevents us from doing so much that would be good to do. If you want to talk about human rights - i can tell you i can talk for hours. Tell me if your such an expert on the subject tell me why this is - Example - You sell drugs, Police see you, arrest you etc. Take you to the station and interview you.... Simple enough? Ok. When you get read your rights, you understand your right to silence etc then they start the interview and you say nothing. Thats fine. isn't it? They stop the interview and return you to whereever you were before. Example2 - I take a bribe off you after you are involved in a brawl at a pub. I get caught out by another officer and he dobs me in. I get arrested and have my rights read to me. I get taken into an interview room and then told that I DO NOT have that right to silence and I must do the interview. And that my friend is the way it is. Why is it that the crooks get treated by the public better than those who defend it. TELL ME! Link here
TELLING YOU!
by FaTP_C	2005-04-12 2:01 PM +0800
Do you really believe that "crooks get treated better by the public than those that defend it"? Thats a pretty generalised question. And one that seems unnecessarily provocative considering the examples you give... Example 1. Sounds fair enough to me. People have rights. Example 2. You accepted a bribe! You have broken the very idea of trust between the public and the police. You should be treated differently because YOU are supposed to be upholding the law - yet by recieving a "bribe" you have completely disregarded the very foundation of your responsibility as a Police Officer. Re Tasers: There is much to be researched and discussed about Tasers. My point all along in this thread is that Police need to be well trained in the use of these weapons. Remember around 100 people have died following Taser usage in the US. Its worth thinking about at least. Link here
untitled
by anonymous	2005-04-22 9:59 AM +0800
You just said it right there. Some other person commits an offence ands its alright for them. Police do it (mind you, i have NEVER accepted bribes... for clarification purposes)and we pay double. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for people to disobey it. Just because we know more about it does not mean that we are not able to receive the same human rights as a crook. Police don't trust Police half the time, why would the public trust us? You don't understand the Policing world mate. We get trained to cover our arse because no one else will, no one actually gives a damn if another cops lands himself in jail. Back to my point - regardless if a cop commits an offence he/she should have their right to silence. yet we don't. It may be a generalised comment that crooks get better treatment than cops - but if you actually look at our rights compared to some crook you would laugh. Regardless if Police are under arrest or just being interviewed following an incident, we are forced to speak or we are faced with a letter asking us why we should keep our job. On the taser subject = i agree that we need good training but it is a weapon that is required by the Police. I think further research needs to be done about taser related deaths. It is possible that those people suffered heart conditions etc in which the taser didn;t make it better for them. Anyhoo, my subject has gone off the tasers - i'm talking about human rights now. Link here
untitled
by different anon	2005-04-22 10:03 AM +0800
forgot to change the name before.. ^^^^ is from me. cheers Link here
TOUGH SHIT!
by The original anonymous	2005-05-04 12:05 AM +0800
Plain and simple, if you don’t want to get your ass tazed, don’t break the Law and don’t fight with the Police! As I said before, none of the people who died after getting tazed were being cooperative. The suspect dictates the level of force used by police. You pull a gun on a cop and he shoots and kills you it is your fault. Not his. You pull a knife and the cop shoots you, again your choice. You fight with the cop and get pepper sprayed or tazed, again your choice. You decide to run from the cop, and out into the street, and get plowed by a truck and die. Your choice. Sometimes death is an unfortunate side effect of using force. Don’t want to die? Don’t put yourself in a dangerous situation. Tazers are not non-lethal, neither is pepper spray, guns, knives, bats, boots, hands etc... I could be trying to physically control someone and they die from a stress-induced heart attack. My fault? No. They made the choice to fight. I don’t ask people their personal medical history before I use force so I’m sure not to hurt them. If they are trying to fight me then they obviously don’t care about my safety do they? But I sure as hell must worry about theirs. So why don’t we have the police just blow whistles at people and yell stop like the Bobbies do? And then we will see how in control things get. I agree with the other anon, and I m sure I mentioned this before. Police are treated differently in the aspect of rights. Yes we are held to a higher standard. So does that mean we can hold criminals to a lower standard? No because amnesty people will get their panties in a wad. Research Tazers all you want, write as many freakin’ reports about how band they are and the numerous poor innocent criminals that are being killed. The point is they are a tool for the Police to use. Take them away and the police will just revert to something else, and then we can start a new discussion about that when someone dies from it. Link here
Ello Ello Ello Whats Goin On Ere Then... Move Along
by FaTP_C	2005-05-04 3:10 PM +0800
Jesus Christ! You say: "and then we can start a new discussion about that when someone dies from it." So we shouldnt ne concerned or act until you kill someone? Just to clarify - you can't be a "poor innocent criminal". Criminals arent innocent - are they? If you guys are supposed to be protecting my safety, its no wonder I have concerns about whats going to happen in the coming years. Shall we put bets on how long before your shiny tazer results in a death. I'm not suggesting for a second that the WA police should have their nice flash tazer toys taken away from them... You got em now! BUT - You guys need to be well trained using Tazers. For the sake of the community. Thats really the whole point to this thread. And to point out the inherent dangers in power being corrupted... Link here
Ello Ello Ello Whats Goin On Ere Then... Move Along.......Hmm, you already used that one!
by The original anonymous	2005-05-05 5:44 AM +0800
Yes, being concerned before someone dies is a good idea. The problem is nobody cares until someone dies or feels that being tazed is punishment. Then everyone starts caring. I’m sure that you weren’t concerned about tazers when they first came out. You probably didn’t jump on the band wagon until someone died and everyone else started raising hell. We are trained in using tazers! So how does being "well trained" in the use of a tazer change anything? Cross train the police to be doctors as well? Or maybe psychic? That way we will know just before we tazer someone that they will die. I have been hit with the taser many times during training, and I didn’t die. Who knows maybe the next time I will. But it is my decision. I put myself in that situation. If I die I don’t expect the sympathy or outcry by anyone. If I were to become a criminal and fight the police and get tased and die. My fault, not theirs. I was being a shithead and the police were trying to control me. I could have ran away tripped on a curb and slammed my head into the patrol car bumper and died. Oops. My fault, or should amnesty look into the effect of patrol car bumpers hitting someones head when they trip. Because if they were padded with fluffy pillows then the less likely an injury would occur. Might be something to look into. Im not saying that I don’t care if people die, I don’t want anyone to die. But when a criminal puts him or herself in the situation to fight the police, they are making their own choice. The threat dictates the level of force the officer uses. “Poor innocent criminals” = sarcasm. It seems that most people will side with the criminals. Why? Who knows, maybe because its fun to find things that the police are doing wrong. Who else is everyone going to blame for all the problems? Not themselves. Hell, why not just get rid of police around the world? Fine with me. I will become a drug dealer. Better pay and better treatment by society. When I fight with the government and get my ass beat you will be there to defend me right? Let crime run rampant and people can protect themselves and their families. While trying not to get killed. So, once again go ahead and write all of the reports and do the studies on tazers. Throw them all away; it doesn’t matter to me either way. If fact I agree with you. Tazers need to all go in the trash, one less thing for me to have to worry about. I’m tired of everyone bitching about it. It’s not a requirement to use them or have them simply an option. I still have a job to do. I go out and get stabbed and shot at for everyone’s enjoyment. You and everyone at amnesty will bitch about the next thing that comes along that you feel is punishing people, or potentially dangerous to them. And while doing so having no regard for the fact that these criminals are being assholes and having no respect for the authority that is there to protect you and everyone else in society. I understand all of the points you make. Some of them I agree with. What’s the resolution to the problem? What perfect thing could the police use to assist them in this imperfect world? That would make everyone warm and fuzzy? Link here
amnesty
by FaTP_C	2005-05-05 2:30 PM +0800
Amnesty International isnt about to investigate fluffy pillows. :) You really stretch the point there! Amnesty, as with most human rights watch groups, exist to investigate and report on human rights abuses - unfortunately usually AFTER they happen. Police aren't perfect. Nor is anyone. If all folks were more respectful to each other and considered each others rights to live a free and full life we wouldnt need Police. But thats Utopia - innit? Its a real world we inhabit. Then we die. So I suppose we should bloody well make the most of our time on the planet - and strive to do our best, and be good to each other. We make mistakes, sure - but perhaps the most fundamental thing about human mental/behavioural evolution is our ability to learn from our fuckups. We grow by NOT repeating the same mistakes, or gaining knowledge from other people's mistakes. Mobs like Amnesty, and Indymedia for that matter, exist to facilitate change - to document, report discuss human rights abuses. If left unreported massive damage occurs, and power becomes completely corrupted. With Authority comes responsibility - and an obligation to keep things above board. Should Police [who work for the Government, elected by the community] have unfettered, unchecked powers to inflict any form of Law Enforcement? You ask: "What perfect thing could the police use to assist them in this imperfect world?" Solution: One big old cliche - LOVE and RESPECT. Treat others as you would have them treat you. But yes! It'd be nice if criminals had better manners! I understand completely the things you say, and indeed, respect the job you guys are faced with. I have met many Police folk over the years and most of them are good people. But hey, I'm interested and curious to know more about the WA Police training methods for Tazers. Could you possibly tell me more about what sort of training is provided? Do you feel confident in using the device? Link here

by The original anonymous	2005-05-10 2:32 AM +0800
Utopia. Love and Respect, well I think we both agree that will never happen, but until then.... The training on the device is about its use and operation. Do I feel confident using the device? Do you mean confident in its operation? yes, I test it every day to make sure it is functioning, but as with and type of device it could malfunction and not work. If I do use it on a person I know it will work. I have seen very few documented cases of a person being tazed and seemingly having no effect. Link here
free goo
by different anonymous	2005-06-01 7:54 PM +0800
well i'm glad thats sorted..or is it? Mr FATP_C i understand your issue with tasers and the possibility that it may kill someone. I know the conversation is over with but I need to remind you that people have also died after being sprayed with OC spray, being hit with a baton and even being held on the ground, (i forget the proper name for it...something asphyxiation...i need spell check on this thing..) . However unfortunate, they are tools that are necessary or sometimes not so necessary. I know that I never want to kill someone or severely injure them, but i know that i want to go home after every shift and i will do whatever is necessary if i'm put in a situation that requires me to use my tools. I am my number one. . Training is a key issue, and i would suggest that the proper training has been given, as I have received proper training for every other tool i carry. . I hope that you can trust that i'm not lying about the things i've told you, yes i am defensive about my occupation and what I do because i love it. But I would prefer that you have come out of this long, long, long discussion an educated person on the issue even though we've only touched the edges of the subject. I can only assume that the original anonymous feels the same way. . If you ever have any questions about things involved in Policing, send me an email at pozza84@hotmail.com obviously i can't divulge most major aspects but i will endevour to attempt to answer any questions. remembering i'm in a different state. Cheers. I hope this is the end of the drama. Link here
Well i say Fuck the police and i was a cop
by Shocked a dissmayed	2005-07-24 2:38 PM +0800
I was Tased this evening... 7/22/05 and it was extrimaly exessive. and i will be pressing charges. i was pulled out of my truck at dusk in Austin TX driving down a 6th st(a bar are of town) a grp of cops wave me to the side of the street i had not yet turnned my head lights on... the cops in this are potrol on foot bike and car for weekend bar hoppers, it gets real busy down there. the ran my ID and came back and told me to get out of the car. I say hold on and let me get my paperwork from my glove box i turned (in my car) and two officers pulled me focable out of the car. i was struk in th back of the head and the shin but two more cops(now 4) and when i went down my arm was pinned under me. As i tried to free my are and put it behind me (hard to do with the fith cop now, on top of me with here knee in my back)so they could habd cuff me. When i was down with handcuffs on the Female cop on my back begain to hit me with the tazer. 5 time ,very painful, in the lower of my back. It leves nice little welts by the way. I was Tazered in to unconcesness and woke on the was to the prison in a paddy wagon. VERY PAINFULL very excessive and in this case very unessasary i was not resisting arrets in any way. I was a cop in Detroit and i know what cops face but in my opinon This whole tazer as non-lethal force is much more crule and inhuman than any form of non-leather used to date and should be banned. PS: A tazer in lower back can force a bowle movement and its extremly messy and embarassing. so yes FUCK the Police Link here
Re:Taser use by police
by Tony B.	2006-04-06 11:54 AM +0800
I happen to be alive to tell this story. I live in Toronto (Brampton) Ontario, Canada. About two weeks ago I was at home having dinner with my family when two police officers (I called them cowards) came knocking at my door. I answered the door and within 5 minutes of them being in my home I was beaten up and tasered atleast (6) SIX times in my home in front of my wife and two adult children. They brutelized me and dragged me from my home and onto the road, they continued tasering me outside as well, in all, I was tasered (11) ELEVEN times (visible burn marks) with the more serious marks (2) on my spine leaving deep burn marks. Within days 3 other taser marks started to appear on my body. The areas of my body (visible burn marks) that they tasered are as follows, 2 to chest just above heart, 1 on tricep of left arm, 1 to side of right arm, 1 to abdomen, 2 to spine, 2 to left buttock, 1 to right hip, 1 to right leg at hip. The other marks that became visible a few days later were as follows, 1 under rib cage on left side, 1 on left inner thigh and 1 to lower right side of abdomen. I didn't know I was tasered until that night while I was in jail and I taught I was tasered just a few times, until the next day when I woke up and my wife pointed out all the other marks on my back. I now know why I have blank (black outs) in my recollection of what occured that night, the taser stunned me and rendered me into physical but not mental submission (because I didn't do anything wrong) and these COWARDS had there way with me, BUT, if you COWARDS (the two YeaHoo's) happen to read this, you young, folish COWARDS had to falsely call in for backup to cover your asses, just remember this quote while you are doing your rounds as SECURITY GUARDS in vacant lots (no insult intended to the honest and hard working SECURITY GUARD FORCE) that you drew first blood and I will do everything in my power to expose both of you, memorize this, "I BOW TO NO MAN AND I DON'T EXPECT ANY MAN TO BOW TO ME" . YOU YeaHoo's give cops every where on GOD'S green earth a bad name. The fortunate part and unfortunate for the two YeaHoo's is that my family witnessed your brutality and has filled in the blanks for me on the recollection of the nightmarish night for me. I pity those two COWARDS who disgrace their uniform. In closing, I would like to know if anybody has gone through this and survide, you can e-mail me cme-eng@sympatico.ca. I would also like to mention that I am 48 years old, married for over 28 years to my wife with 2 adult children, 27 and 22 and NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER have been in trouble with the police in the 48 years that I have been on GOD'S green earth. You may be wondering why they came knocking at my door, I'll tell you, someone phoned the police stating that there was a drunk driver on the road. I will post pictures at later time. Regards to All who have been mistreated, Survivor, Tony B. Link here Add multimedia to story Add links to story
Re:Taser use by police
by Tony B.	2006-04-06 12:12 PM +0800
I happen to be alive to tell this story. I live in Toronto (Brampton) Ontario, Canada. About two weeks ago I was at home having dinner with my family when two police officers (I called them cowards) came knocking at my door. I answered the door and within 5 minutes of them being in my home I was beaten up and tasered atleast (6) SIX times in my home in front of my wife and two adult children. They brutelized me and dragged me from my home and onto the road, they continued tasering me outside as well, in all, I was tasered (11) ELEVEN times (visible burn marks) with the more serious marks (2) on my spine leaving deep burn marks. Within days 3 other taser marks started to appear on my body. The areas of my body (visible burn marks) that they tasered are as follows, 2 to chest just above heart, 1 on tricep of left arm, 1 to side of right arm, 1 to abdomen, 2 to spine, 2 to left buttock, 1 to right hip, 1 to right leg at hip. The other marks that became visible a few days later were as follows, 1 under rib cage on left side, 1 on left inner thigh and 1 to lower right side of abdomen. I didn't know I was tasered until that night while I was in jail and I taught I was tasered just a few times, until the next day when I woke up and my wife pointed out all the other marks on my back. I now know why I have blank (black outs) in my recollection of what occured that night, the taser stunned me and rendered me into physical but not mental submission (because I didn't do anything wrong) and these COWARDS had there way with me, BUT, if you COWARDS (the two YeaHoo's) happen to read this, you young, folish COWARDS had to falsely call in for backup to cover your asses, just remember this quote while you are doing your rounds as SECURITY GUARDS in vacant lots (no insult intended to the honest and hard working SECURITY GUARD FORCE) that you drew first blood and I will do everything in my power to expose both of you, memorize this, "I BOW TO NO MAN AND I DON'T EXPECT ANY MAN TO BOW TO ME" . YOU YeaHoo's give cops every where on GOD'S green earth a bad name. The fortunate part and unfortunate for the two YeaHoo's is that my family witnessed your brutality and has filled in the blanks for me on the recollection of the nightmarish night for me. I pity those two COWARDS who disgrace their uniform. In closing, I would like to know if anybody has gone through this and survide, you can e-mail me cme-eng@sympatico.ca. I would also like to mention that I am 48 years old, married for over 28 years to my wife with 2 adult children, 27 and 22 and NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER have been in trouble with the police in the 48 years that I have been on GOD'S green earth. You may be wondering why they came knocking at my door, I'll tell you, someone phoned the police stating that there was a drunk driver on the road. I will post pictures at later time. Regards to All who have been mistreated, Survivor, Tony B. Link here Add multimedia to story Add links to story
Tasers etc
by other anonymous	2006-04-07 5:48 PM +0800
I just read your email and managed to find this place again. Obviously there is a major major MAJOR problem with your state Police Tony. However, I'm interested to know the reason the Police were at your home and what occured in the five minutes between them getting there and you being tasered. The Police service I work with currently do NOT have tasers and only the tactical response units have been trained in their use. So my knowledge about the use and how much force they can give is very limited. I can however, based on the laws and procedures set out in my Police service, tell you what the Police in My service can/can't do. In any instance, I am allowed to use REASONABLE force to stop 1. Myself or any other person being injured or killed, any property being damaged, if a violent confrontation is going to happen etc. Once that threat subsides, I do not use any further force unless it is warranted again. My thoughts on this case, and I remind you that this is my personal opinion of which I have not been trained in tasers, I think that being tasered 11 + times is excessive, unless you some kind of superhuman able to withstand electrical current running through your body and after 5 + shocks are still a major threat to the Police officers safety. Needless to say, it wasn't the tasers fault that you were shocked 11 times, it was the person applying pressure to the trigger. I suggest you get some legal advice with a lawyer and see what they say. Without knowing exactly why they tasered you, or knowing the local law on the use of tasers, it's hard to say if you would have a case. I'm not taser happy, I have always stated that proper training will always be of a benefit. The Police in your state are obviously not very well trained in the field. Email me if you have any questions. I'm happy to talk with you. Link here
Re: Tasers etc
by Tony B.	2006-04-10 11:31 AM +0800
I'm no super-human but I think the more they tasered me the more enraged I became, because my family told me (as we were recounting the events of that night) that my screams kept getting louder and louder and sounded like an angry animal until they closed the door on the cruiser and took me away. There is a lot of gray areas in my recollection of that night, but this is what I have been told, "one minute I was standing up for my rights with no aggression and the next minute I could hardly stand up on my own, my voice became faint and I looked as if I didn't know where I was", this happened quite a few times in my home and outside. Translation, each time they tasered me, I went into submission, but these cowards din't hand cuff me after the first taser hit because they wanted to have some fun and beat up on a midlle aged man. These cowards (PUNKS) were in their mid to late twenty's and in good physical shape and they didn't expect a 50 year old to hold his own and especially when this 50 year old didn't do anything wrong. The only thing that occurred that night was as follows, I got home some time after 7:00 pm with my wife from a shopping trip. Grab a cold beer from the fridge, looked for something to eat, finished my beer quicky and grabbed another, as I sat eating (almost half) these two cowboys (arond 8:00pm) knocked on my door and the rest is history. They stated that they were called about a drunk driver on the road, mean while I was home having dinner. I'll keep you posted as this drama continues. Regards, Tony B. Link here
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